Why do religions produce so many hypocrites?

I used to think that hypocrisy in religious communities was exceptional and could be easily dealt with once discovered. Now I’m not so sure.

Look at this discussion:

I need some advice. My family has strong roots to the bahai religion . Both my mom and dad left Iran at a young age during the iranian revolution to practice their religion in America . My dad is part of the spiritual assembly. My parents hosts allot of feasts at our house and are well known in the community. As a kid I was made to go to Sunday school allot and made to attend some of those bahai youth camps . At the age of 15 I had to sign a bahai card in front of everyone at the feast because If I didn’t my parents would be embarrassed and be sad so I signed it . After that day I signed my card I told my dad I really don’t believe in this faith. I could never wrap my head around why Baháʼu’lláh had three wives and women not being able to serve in the universal house of justice. One of the main reasons that turned me off about the faith was the constant discussion of how to get more new followers . Every feast I attended we literally talked about how to get new members and discussing different ways to teach the faith to non believers. In Sunday’s school and in youth camps , this was always the topic for the most part . In spite of all of this I made an agreement with my parents not to officially make myself not a bahai but I let them know I don’t believe in any of this this . The reason I did this is because my parents would really be sad and it would be an embarrassing situation for my dad because he is part of the spiritually assembly . If I wanted to withdraw from the Bahai faith it would be brought up in one of his spiritual assembly meetings. Everyone in the spiritual assembly is my dads close friends and they always go over to each others houses . I’ve been trying to talk to my parents about leaving the faith and I always bring up really good points of why to leave it but they always are in denial and never give me answers to my questions . One day I asked my dad what makes you so sure about this faith and he said my great grandmother met Baháʼu’lláh. They get really emotional after I question the faith in front of them,sometimes angry at me or sometimes sad . They’re in there late 50s right now . My question is do you think it’s too late for them to leave the faith . Do you think they’re too far in it ? I really feel like they’re brain washed . They were taught about the faith at a very young age . Everything around them and all there friends were Bahai. Bahai everything . Do I continue question their faith in front of them or just let them be? Sorry for the bad grammar.

 

I offered some advice, but it is more interesting what others said there.

Wow, okay there is a lot to un-box here. Regarding your parents, yes from what you’ve shared it does seem they’re fully entrenched in their belief system. For you however, you need to ask yourself some questions.

  1. Is it safe to leave?

I don’t know what the finer details your situation are, but I have seen Persian Baha’i parents shun and disown their teenage sons and daughters over this issue. It’s truly heartbreaking. You would have to estimate how they would react to you rejecting their worldview openly, and what the fallout from that might look like. I understand reputation is of importance in Persian culture, and you’re worried what this might do to your father’s reputation. You will need to carefully consider that too when trying to predict how he will react.

2. Is it healthy for you to stay?

On the other hand, you need to consider the toll that living a life that is inauthentic will have on your mental health. I did that for years before I left and I still get emotional when I think of the regrets I have. Mainly regretting going through the motions to maintain an appearance of engagement in something I was starting to have profound disagreements with.

I really hope you’re able to make the right decision for yourself, whatever that may be. While many of us on this sub have differering affiliations now, we all went through difficulties when we started to move away from the faith. Best of luck to you!

Then a Baha’i barged in. A bit of background: This particular Baha’i was so much a contrarian that he was actually banned from the Bahai subreddit, so he went to the exBahai subreddit instead, where oddly enough, the mods there almost never took action against him. The reason for that will become clear soon.

I will defend the Faith a bit:

I could never wrap my head around why Baháʼu’lláh had three wives and women not being able to serve in the universal house of justice.

About the three wives, my view is that a prophet is above his laws. The religious book is there to help guide people to doing good. But if you can communicate directly with God, you do not need to observe what is in the book to do what is good.

As for women on the UHJ, my view is that women are just unfit to be in the highest position of authority. It is in women’s nature to follow whatever is the dominant trend, and this is not good for leading a religion. All moral laws would be compromised if they conflict with trends. For example, if women were on the UHJ, there is no question they would have already declared gay marriage to be permissible in the Bahai Faith.

One of the main reasons that turned me off about the faith was the constant discussion of how to get more new followers . Every feast I attended we literally talked about how to get new members and discussing different ways to teach the faith to non believers.

I think you are perfectly justified in being turned off by these people. But it is not Bahaullah’s writings that tell them to do this, but an insane proselytism culture that now dominates the Bahai community, which views converting others as being the main if not only goal of the Bahai Faith. If you read Bahaullah’s writings, you will find that this culture in no way stems from him. There are some passages where Bahaullah encourages teaching, but there are also passages where he discourages it in some cases. For example, Bahaullah says that you should teach yourself before teaching others. He also says that it is not acceptable for people who are not firm believers to teach. This is the exact opposite of what the Baha’i community does – for example, the entire goal of Ruhi is to trick non-believers into acting as missionaries for the Bahai Faith.

So we went after him!

Pretty sure you are alone in your views on this subreddit

“The prophet is above his laws?” “Women are unfit to be in a high position of authority,” but women and men are also equal? The mental gymnastics you have to do in order to believe what you said is astounding.

I do not think Jesus Christ or Moses would ever believe they were above the Ten Commandments or the Gospel.

You’re telling this to a teen who is about to leave this religion as soon as they can. You’re definitely not encouraging this person to stay in your faith.

Then he said:

I do not think Jesus Christ or Moses would ever believe they were above the Ten Commandments or the Gospel.

One of the commandments is “Thou shalt not kill” and Moses killed people on multiple occasions. Prophets do not follow their own rules for the same reason that a dog owner might make a rule for his dog that he does not follow himself.

Higher beings require less rules. The highest being, God, does not need to follow any rules.

Then I decided to nail him to the wall!

“Rules for thee, not for me” is the very definition of hypocrisy, which Jesus actually condemned.

And since you opened the door for this…..

https://dalehusband.com/2019/05/12/biblical-genocide-and-pedophilia/

https://dalehusband.com/2018/02/24/god-was-a-hypocrite/

When God (and his Messengers) do not follow their own rules, they open the door for rules to not matter at all. For anyone.

And that is why I, as a highly ethical ATHEIST and Unitarian Universalist, don’t need your kind of god-centered religion at all. I DO have strict rules and principles and I seek to obey them in all ways.

https://dalehusband.com/about-the-author/an-honorable-skeptic/

https://www.uua.org/beliefs/what-we-believe/principles

Racists should be consistent in their bigotry

I always assumed that most racists rejected and looked down on ALL members of minorities, without exception. But that appears to not be the case sometimes.

Take a look at this discussion:

gothlaw

“expat Shaun Cromber voted Leave but said he did not believe Brexit would end his Spanish lifestyle. He said: “Yes I voted out, but I didn’t realise it would come to this.”

So he voted for the UK to leave the EU, but then did not immediately leave the EU to return to the UK? Seriously???

InPatRileyWeTrust

This is literally the classic leave voter. Yeah we voted leave but didn’t think anything negative would actually happen.

_________________

‘Get those dirty Italian and Spanish foreigners out of the UK….but oh let me stay in their country so I can enjoy their lifestyle’.

Then the discussion went beyond the issue of Brexit.

I spent most of the past decade working (legally) in China. You wouldn’t believe the number of American “expats” I met there “teaching” English on tourist & business visas. For most I didn’t care about their status…except the ones who ranted on about “illegals” back home. I took great pleasure in discussing & highlighting their illegal status. Most didn’t get the irony of their situation due to exceptionalism.

Note: I was an economic migrant. I had a choice of being unemployed/redundant back home or move to China.

__________________________

A Trump supporter’s husband was deported in 2017 and she says that Trump was only supposed to deport “bad” people and not illegal immigrants like her husband. She Trump made a mistake, but still has her support.

____________

and then they interviewed other Karens from the same town. Apparnetly the genetleman deported had lived in the town for 20 + years, raised a family there, OWNED THE ONLY MEXICAN RESTAURANT IN TOWN, was loved by all the people there……

Interview after interview these white folks said they LOVED TRUMP and still supported his push to get rid of illegals, but they wanted him to make an exception for their illegal.

Just like every other thing and republicans…..they are filled with hate and anger until their policies affect themselves…..then they have an epiphany, say something akin to “I didn’t think the leopards would eat my face” and then keep on hating the next day.* (* explained at bottom)

Hate is their fuel. Just like old people’s medicine is for the robots that are going to take over and kill us all.

*: I just made a comment about 30 minutes ago about Republicans who protest outside abortion clinics. I’ve read countless interviews with abortion clinic nurses and providers who repeatedly state that many of the same women that protest wind up in their clinic receiving their services, but ALWAYS say something along these lines, “Well, you see, my situation is special. I wasn’t a whore like all the other girls that come here.”

And then after being treated with kindness and compassion, the abortion protestor is seen outside the very clinic they received an abortion at less than a week afterwards, yelling hateful things to the people that treated them with kindness. Just another example of someone who can’t fathom life outside of their own little minds until they are thrust into the same situation. Then, instead of it changing their viewpoint and becoming a better person, they think they’re the exception and go on right back to hating.

_______________

I listened to an NPR interview a couple months ago (up to 6 months ago I’d say, so I may get some details wrong) where the host did a segment on one gentleman. He was from Mexico, but his family got him US citizenship when he was a child and moved him up here. I think they said he joined the Navy for a time before getting out and joining Border Patrol. He was a distinguished border patrol agent, got several awards and a fair amount of recognition over his 10+ year career.
He talked about how he didn’t always agree with who he was tasked with deporting, but it was the law and how things worked and he left it at that. I was honestly kind of pissed with how he could view someone in such similar circumstances as himself, but because their family didn’t do their due diligence, they deserved to have everything taken from them in an instant. Him and his wife both voted for Trump, despite him being an immigrant.
And then they talked about how he was called into his supervisors office one day where he was met with a couple other federal agents. He was informed that his US birth certificate was actually a forgery and completely fake, and he had been illegally living and working in the US for a few decades. He was ordered to turn in his badge, his gun, and then told that he would need to fight it in the courts. Y’know, just like all the people he had arrested over the years. He had no idea, his parents/grandparents had lied to him since he was a boy.
Him and his wife were very upset, obviously, and got legal help. During the interview he had mentioned that they had been fighting in the courts for a couple years already, but they had just submitted their final appeal, likely in vain. They couldn’t believe that he, a distinguished federal employee and veteran, couldn’t be granted any sort of leniency to try and prevent him from being deported, or that Trump had enacted such tough immigration laws and had basically abandoned them when they felt they needed him.
The whole interview, like I said, pissed me off because I honestly felt the guy was getting what he deserved. He broke the rules, just like he said all those people he had apprehended over the years, and they needed to suffer the consequences. But once the shoe was on his foot, and he was the one being deported, all of a sudden it’s “this isn’t fair, this isn’t right, this isn’t just,” blah blah blah.
The most astounding part? I’m pretty sure they both said they (the guy and his wife) had or were going to vote for Trump again in 2020, and… Just, I don’t get people. The Republican Party and those who follow it are the epitome of “rules for thee, not for me,” and this guy was acting like he was unjustly being targeted when he was literally guilty of everything they said he had done.

________________

Teripid

And Trump himself is responsible for Melania’s parents.

__________________

I watched an episode of that show Ghosted on MTV. There was a white girl who had been ghosted by her black friend. She couldn’t figure out why. It turns out she was a Trump supporter and would post all kinds of hateful stuff on FB. When they found her former friend the ghoster was like you really don’t understand why I wouldn’t want to be friends with you?

__________________

That’s the very definition of hypocrisy.

There was the case of a German Army officer who had to deal with a Swedish diplomat (Sweden was neutral in World War II) who eventually revealed he was Jewish. The German officer said, “You are a good Jew. I wouldn’t consider you my enemy.”

That German was still a Hitler supporter to the end, of course.

______________

there was this saying that every German had their “good Jew”. You know, that one Jew who wasn’t like the others, all the others were terrible, but that one Jew they knew, he wasn’t like that.

It’s always easier to hate a big abstract group of people than the people you actually know.

_______________

There’s a very important corollary this that I want to note; despite what they claim, they don’t actually believe that abortion is wrong. They just believe that the wrong kind of people are getting abortions.

This is prevalent in Conservative attitudes to literally everything. It’s all about hierarchies, and making sure that the right kind of people are at the top of those hierarchies. Everything is acceptable, when the right people are doing it.

This reminds me of this earlier blog entry:

The Dumbest Kind of Trump Supporter

And the cases of Thomas Jefferson and Strom Thurmond come to mind as well. Both had relationships and even children with black women……and both were racists and championed racist policies. BOTH WERE HYPOCRITES!

And that’s why I have always said:

I believe in consistent standards of right and wrong and so I see no point in ever excusing something that is wrong because the wrongdoer is otherwise a friendly or nice guy. That’s how corruption sets in.

And corruption is the only thing Conservatives in ANY society seem to do. People enable that nonsense because it seems they only want to be good to a certain point and when that point is reached and ethical consistency starts to make their lives a bit less convenient for them (but beneficial for people that are different from them), they embrace corruption instead. And so they might as well not be good at all.

Mormon leaders need to STFU about tithing!

A common complaint in the ExMormon subreddit is over the obsession the Mormon leaders have with tithing, which is paying 1/10th of your earnings to the church. Many Christian churches encourage this and some also accept “offerings” (any payment that is not a part of tithing).

I can understand a church suggesting tithing as a means of its support, but making it MANDATORY seems absurd. And yet…….

I couldn’t believe the Mormon church would do such a thing. And then I saw the proof:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2012/12/sacred-transformations?lang=eng

The Vigils’ bishop, César Orellana, also saw changes in their lives. Soon after their baptism, Amado approached Bishop Orellana and said, “We want to pay tithing, but we don’t know how.”

Bishop Orellana explained that tithing was 10 percent of their increase. Amado was somewhat concerned. At the time, Evelyn had a job, but he did not. “We always come up short,” Amado explained to his bishop, “but we want to pay tithing.”

Bishop Orellana responded, “Brother, the Lord has made many promises.” Together they read scriptures about the blessings that come from faithfully paying tithing, including the Lord’s words through the prophet Malachi: “Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, … and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it” (Malachi 3:10).

After reading these scriptures together, Bishop Orellana looked at the new convert and said, “If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing. The Lord will not abandon you.”

The next Sunday, Amado approached Bishop Orellana again. This time he didn’t ask any questions. He simply handed his bishop an envelope and said, “Bishop, here is our tithing.”

If you are actually trying to get people to starve themselves or go without any basic necessities to give you anything, YOU ARE A DAMNED PARASITE!!!!

People like Bishop Orellana are con artists, pure and simple.

A critical analysis of a Muslim to Baha’i testimony

Today, I can celebrate, as Joe Biden finally takes his rightful place as the new President of the United States. I really hope Donald Trump fades away into the void like the degenerate scumbag he always was.

Meanwhile, I am still dealing with religious issues in reddit. Take a look at this:

https://www.removeddit.com/r/bahai/comments/l189z7/from_shia_exmuslim_to_bahai/

they_marked_me

I grew up in a strict Iraqi Shia family. I always had a place for God in my heart but I could never reconcile with the teachings of the Quran and the effects Islam had on the Muslim communities around me, shia, sunni, moderate and others. I saw sexism, homophobia, gossip, emotional isolation and of course violent enforcement of religious teachings. When I was finally old enough to legally leave my family home I did. I left religion, my hijab and the community behind. I needed to finally breathe.

10 years passed and I noticed that God’s place in my heart was getting smaller and smaller. There was even a point where I doubted my belief. Why was there so much hatred in his communities? Why was so much pain caused by his believers? Their worship and and words were so different that they might as well be descended from different Gods. I resented that I was told to believe in a God that promised nothing but horror, torture and hell fire. There was no compassion for Gods creatures, no pleasure in bowing down for him, no inspiration in their teachings and no guidance for my modern life. Deep down I knew of God and his true nature. His compassion, his beauty, his love for us. I couldn’t follow any religion or book that besmirched his name like that.

I wasn’t approached by any Bahai. I never saw any of their online work. I just searched for an answer. I refused to believe that God would let us rot in this horribly defect world we created. I believed that he must have thought of us and sent us guidance. I just needed to find it. It didn’t take long. When I learned about the Bab and his story it all clicked into place. The Shia teachings that I learned about in madrassa allowed me to recognize the Bab’s truth.

I’m only in the learning stages and I have no Bahai communities near me. But I call myself a Bahai because now I know that the God I have in my heart has never abandoned us.

Let’s do an examination of this testimony.

I always had a place for God in my heart but I could never reconcile with the teachings of the Quran and the effects Islam had on the Muslim communities around me, shia, sunni, moderate and others.

Millions of moderate and progressive Muslims can do just that. Indeed, there are subreddits of such Muslims, like this one:

https://www.reddit.com/r/progressive_islam/

I saw sexism, homophobia, gossip, emotional isolation and of course violent enforcement of religious teachings.

There is sexism and homophobia in the Baha’i Faith, even while the Faith’s leaders lie about believing in equality of men and women and claim they reject prejudice against gays

Why was there so much hatred in his communities? Why was so much pain caused by his believers? Their worship and and words were so different that they might as well be descended from different Gods. I resented that I was told to believe in a God that promised nothing but horror, torture and hell fire. There was no compassion for Gods creatures, no pleasure in bowing down for him, no inspiration in their teachings and no guidance for my modern life.

Those are exactly the sort of issues that lead many people to become atheists. And yet…..

Deep down I knew of God and his true nature. His compassion, his beauty, his love for us. I couldn’t follow any religion or book that besmirched his name like that.

Then why not embrace a form of Universalism?

I wasn’t approached by any Bahai. I never saw any of their online work. I just searched for an answer.

If you haven’t dealt directly with Baha’is, then you know nothing about how their religion works in terms of community. You just saw an abstraction. Religion is only useful in terms of its people.

I refused to believe that God would let us rot in this horribly defect world we created.

Ironically, atheism, so reviled by followers of Abrahamic religions, actually lets God off the hook; you can’t blame God for anything if he doesn’t exist.

I believed that he must have thought of us and sent us guidance. I just needed to find it.

I had the same assumptions in the mid 1990s, so I too became a Baha’i.

When I learned about the Bab and his story it all clicked into place. The Shia teachings that I learned about in madrassa allowed me to recognize the Bab’s truth.

Bullshit! The Bab claimed to be the Mahdi, a Messianic figure in Shiite Islam much like Jesus was supposed to be in Christianity. The Bab was expected to overthrow the evil rulers of the world and bring about a new age, but his being killed in 1850 by a firing squad should have discredited him and his movement forever. That didn’t happen because only a few years later, Baha’u’llah revived the Babi community and then claimed that he was “He Who God Will Make Manifest” that the Bab foretold. Most of the Babis, desperate to retain their faith, accepted Baha’u’llah and became Baha’is. To me, this would be an example of the sunk cost fallacy; the Babis and later Baha’is had suffered so much for their beliefs that they couldn’t bring themselves to admit they had been duped and their leadership had failed. This irrational view has kept the Baha’i Faith going to this day!

It is interesting that she is more interested in the Bab than Baha’u’llah. Could she become a Bayani/Azali if she discovers propaganda discrediting Baha’u’llah? But that movement is even less successful than the Baha’i one!

It is possible that the real reason she rejected Islam is that it does not fit her Spiritual Orientation. Could the Baha’i Faith be better for her? Then she should read this:

https://dalehusband.com/2018/05/04/if-your-spiritual-orientation-is-bahai/

And for clarity, she should also see this:

https://dalehusband.com/2018/04/24/if-your-spiritual-orientation-is-muslim/

She should also see THIS about a girl raised Muslim:

https://dalehusband.com/2019/06/16/a-conversion-to-unitarian-universalism/

There are SO MANY options they_marked_me can look up and consider before she goes off the deep end and wastes her time and life serving the cult of the So-Called Baha’i Faith (SCBF)!

 

 

Advice for people leaving or thinking of leaving their religion.

In reddit, there are many subreddits that are made as support groups for people doubting or denying the religion they were raised in and wanting to leave it. This blog entry is for those people.

Here is a list of those ex(religious) subreddits.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Exittors/     (A general subreddit for various people leaving any religious group allowing them to  compare notes and see how much alike they are.)

https://www.reddit.com/r/exchristian/

https://www.reddit.com/r/excatholic/

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/

https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/     (A subreddit for former Jehovah’s Witnesses, not to be confused with ex-Jews)

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/

https://www.reddit.com/r/exjew/  (THIS is the subreddit for people who have rejected the Jewish religion, even if they are considered of Jewish ethnicity.)

https://www.reddit.com/r/exAdventist/    (For those who reject Seventh Day Adventist teachings)

https://www.reddit.com/r/exscientology/

https://www.reddit.com/r/EXHINDU/

https://www.reddit.com/r/excoc/      (For those rejecting the “Church of Christ”)

https://www.reddit.com/r/thegreatproject/     (Another subreddit for people wanting to tell stories about leaving their religion.)

And last but certainly not least (at least to me):  

https://www.reddit.com/r/exbahai/

Warning: Do NOT go to a religious group of any kind and openly state you want to quit their religion. All that will do is start a fight you don’t need to be involved in. Examples:  

Once you decide what you really are, you can join a subreddit that defines you in a positive rather than a negative way. Such as:

https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/

https://www.reddit.com/r/agnostic/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Humanist/

https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/

https://www.reddit.com/r/UnitarianUniversalist/

Finally, here is a song for all those ex(religious) people in the world to celebrate their freedom from whatever cult or dogmatic bullshit they were once in:

 

 

Rape and incest in the Middle East, and elsewhere

Read this horror story:

Children with genetic diseases due to inbreeding in Syria’s Idlib

Children with genetic diseases due to inbreeding in Syria’s Idlib

IDLIB, Syria (North Press) – Despite all medical warnings and risks of cousin marriage, families in northwestern Syria continue forcing their daughters to cousin marriage according to the prevailing customs that prohibit marriage to strangers.   

Cousin marriage mainly affects the new-born children; they may have congenital anomalies, disabilities and chronic genetic diseases, according to medical studies.

Samar Ali, 18, a resident from the city of Saraqeb in the eastern countryside of Idlib, said that she was forced to an arranged marriage to her cousin two years ago, “I refused him because I felt as if he was my brother, but my father forced me to marry him.”        

“A year following the marriage, I gave birth to a child with thalassemia (chronic genetic anemia) where it will bear the consequences of that marriage throughout its life.”

Samar is forced to take her child to the Thalassemia Center every 15 days for blood transfusion; unfortunately this process will continue for the rest of the child’s life.

Children with thalassemia spend several hours in blood transfusion operation. However, some transfer blood every 15 days while others do it every month.

Some people from Idlib believe that inbreeding increased during years of war under the pretext of protecting the girl from being kidnapped or raped.

Additionally, relatives were forced to displace or take refuge to some places whether inside or outside the country, in addition to the fact that such kind of marriage has lower cost than marrying a girl from outside the family.  

Aysha Mahmoud, a resident from Kafr Losin in the northern countryside of Idlib who married her cousin, decided to abstain from childbearing after she gave birth to a child with paralysis of his lower limbs, which turned into muscle atrophy until he was no longer able to move and walk over the time.

She insisted on her decision even after her husband married another woman.

“Many cousin couples are not subjected to the necessary medical examinations before marriage because they do not realize the risks of such marriages,” Abdulqader Muhammad, a doctor in Idlib, said.

The most familiar diseases among children are mental retardation, kidney cyst, heart disease, liver disease, diabetes, blood diseases, and the most dangerous of which is thalassemia, which has no cure, according to the doctor.

Some families who marry their daughters to their relatives believe that these marriages strengthen families’ ties and protect the customs and norms that are more powerful than the scientific facts for them.  

Marwa Hallaq (pseudonym), a 20-year-old woman from Idlib,  said that the woman is forced to tolerate and not call for her rights when marrying her cousin, so that to avoid disputes between the two families.”

“Despite all continued difficulties, disputes, and lack of understanding between us, I have to endure that in order to avoid disputes between my family and my family-in-laws,” Hallaq added. 

Continue reading

Another victory over the Baha’i Faith and one of its bigoted hypocrites

Two days ago, a seeker (a Baha’i term for a person investigating the Baha’i Faith) came to the Baha’i subreddit to ask questions about it.

And among those who tried to offer answers and advice was:

One of the things I would encourage is really taking the time to understand who Baha’u’llah is and what He taught. We all come with different backgrounds and experiences, but the concept in the Baha’i Faith of the Messenger of God as the representative of God and reflection of the Holy Spirit is at the core of our theology.

-It is difficult to understand and conceive of God. On one level, God and the spirit emanating from God is in all things; but, at another level, God is independent, unknowable, and one in the Baha’i Faith.

Meanwhile, I was in a state of rage, after learning this same DavidBinOwen had stalked and attacked me in another subreddit where I had made a statement against the Baha’i Faith. And I was damn tired of being one of his favorite prey items! So I proceeded to rant about it in the exBaha’i subreddit.

And the seeker SAW that! So he contacted me.

imfinnacry

Hey, Sorry to bother you but I would like to be very open with you. I’m a person in search of my religious beliefs. One that best reflects my spiritual beliefs and welcomes my choice of practice. I’ve found Unitarian Universalist, Baha’i Faith, and Advaita Vedanta Hinduism as my primary choices. I also have Islam and returning back to hinduism in the back of my head as far off options for me.

I come to you because I recently joined the Baha’i subreddit and asked them a couple of questions regarding mysticism, divination, and my Pantheist views.

Before converting I did more research that led me to this subreddit and your most recent post about a member of the baha’i subreddit DavidBinOwen. Your post shocked me because it comes off the complete opposite to what I have come to know learning about the Baha’i believers.

I wish to know what do you know about the Baha’i faith from your experience. Why did you decide Baha’i wasn’t for you and what do you not like about it. I want to use what you may know as a warning or caution for what I might be getting myself into.

 

I decided that to be diplomatic was the best option, so…..

To be fair, I should note that DavidBinOwen is not really a typical Baha’i. Most Baha’is I used to know were genuinely loving and honorable people…..at least they seemed to be. Here is one of my most powerful statements against the Baha’i Faith. If you want anything more, contact me later.

The next day:

imfinnacry

I do have a question for you

I read what you’ve sent me and I’ve also read the blogs you’ve referenced in this particular post you’ve made as well: https://www.reddit.com/r/exbahai/comments/idqjpp/a_conversation_about_religion/

________________

Seeker_Alpha1701

What is your question?

____________________

imfinnacry

I’m honestly quite disheartened. It felt like I’ve finally found a faith that was pretty much as close to what I’ve wanted out of a religious institution with it’s progressive and liberal values, inclusion of other religious faiths and so on.

As a pantheist first, a fan of rational minded educators, Baruch Spinoza, Einstein, and simply logic I can’t bring myself to subscribing to the Baha’i Faith like I once wanted to after reading your posts that pointed out so many fallacies and inconsistencies in the faith.

My question to you is, I did come across one blog while scouring your website. It was the blog about you and your friend presenting the idea of a Unitarian Baha’i Faith. Do you think that’s possible to achieve? Or would you suggest simply looking into UU instead?

I am guessing he saw this:

https://dalehusband.com/2010/04/05/why-we-need-a-unitarian-bahai-faith/

Seeker_Alpha1701

To make a long story short, Eric Stetson eventually dropped out of the Unitarian Baha’i movement, and all that’s left of it is a few websites and a Facebook group. Based on your various comments, you might be best joining a UU church, where you may always be free to explore different theologies and beliefs while still being part of a community that won’t judge you for questioning things most other religions take for granted.

To help you sort things out, please read all these essays: https://dalehusband.com/spiritual-orientation-series/

I won’t tell you what to believe, but I want to give you the tools to find out what is truly best for you. That sets me, and most UUs, apart from most Baha’is, Christians, and other dogmatic religions that seek converts.

____________

imfinnacry

Thank you, I appreciate it Dale.

For DavidBinOwen, this is a clear case of:

https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/hoisted+by+their+own+petard

hoist by/with (one’s) own petard

To be injured, ruined, or defeated by one’s own action, device, or plot that was intended to harm another; to have fallen victim to one’s own trap or schemes.

Being Better Educated and Changing my Opinion

One of my basic principles of being an Honorable Skeptic is what I call the malleability of my opinions, as expressed this way:

Because I am honorable, I sometimes willingly concede points made by my opponents in debates with them. This should never be seen as a sign of weakness. When I know I am right about something, I will fight to the bitter end to support my case and discredit my opponent because in some cases I do see my battles as a struggle between light and darkness, good and evil, or ignorance and knowledge. But I am also willing at times to listen to my opponent and consider his point of view, especially if that person is known by me to be honorable. If we do not listen to others, how can we ever grow in knowledge?

In the past, I opposed the legal concept of statutory rape, thinking it an outdated and irrational one, much like laws in the past banning homosexual relations or interracial unions. But recent events have made me reconsider my position and try to understand why otherwise enlightened people would be so insistent that teens should never be allowed to have romantic and sexual relations with older partners, even of their own choosing.

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A debate in the UU subreddit over the 2017 hiring controversy.

For some background, read these:

What integrity in leadership looks like

Stop whining about “censorship”!

A Critical Mistake in the UU World

Reopening Old Wounds Among Unitarian Universalists

Now, the issues dealt with in those blog entries are being rehashed yet again in a UU subreddit.

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Wahid Azal strikes again!

Today (December 18, 2019) I got this message on reddit:

Your account has been permanently suspended for posting personal information.

https://www.reddit.com/r/exbahai/comments/e1okuf/i_was_suspended_from_reddit_last_week_under_false/

This is an automated message; responses will not be received by Reddit admins.

And just like last time, it was not made clear what personal information was being referred to. How can I know not to break rules if it is never explained the exact nature of my violation? Even in the previous case, I had to guess what my wrongdoing was; I still do not really know because no one in reddit ever actually told me. This is why reddit as a web community has very little credibility in my eyes.

It is obvious to me that Wahid Azal won’t give up until I am totally gone from reddit forever and thus it is easier for him and his cultists to disrupt the exBaha’i community there.

A few days before my second suspension, there was this incident between me and another idiot follower of Azal.

Good observations. Persian Bahais have been put on a pedestal in many communities but that’s not what the Bahai teachings are about. In general, I believe pride is a stumbling block for most people, but especially for Bahais as their scriptures make them feel special… a way to keep people attached to the religion for fear of losing that special status.

Yes, and THAT was why Wahid Azal claimed later I was a “racist”. Not because I have used racial slurs or because I have advocated actual discrimination against any racial minorities. Quite the opposite.

komorikomori

He called you a racist because you exude racism and white privilege despite all your pretensions to the contrary, and upon being confronted with this, you resorted to accusations of “reverse racism,” which is a white nationalist dog-whistle. Believe it or not, but you don’t have to be running around shouting the N-word and making flagrantly racist statements to be expressing sentiments of white privilege.

Needless to say, that claim is absolute bullshit! So I promptly ripped it apart.

ALL white people in white majority countries have white privledge, that’s true, but I have NEVER expressed the kind of bigoted hatred towards any minorities that Wahid Azal started spitting at me once it was clear I would never be one of his blind followers. Being white, even in a southern state like Texas, does NOT make someone racist. Azal simply lied about that, period. He is a fraud and you are a fool to believe anything he says.

Imagine a prominent Muslim theologian who happens to live in a majority pagan country, who was even born in that country and belongs to that country’s dominant ethnic group, as well as being raised pagan and converting to Islam as an adult, being called a polytheist and thus guilty of shirk by an insanely jealous rival, which is something literally impossible for an actual Muslim to be. You can only justify such an outrageous claim if you produce pics of the “Muslim” bowing down to an idol of a god other than Allah. Otherwise, it is just an insulting lie, stemming from racism. That was the basis for my calling Wahid Azal a racist towards me. He attacked me for my Southern Baptist background (which is indeed bigoted), not anything I’ve done since leaving that corrupt form of Christianity.

you resorted to accusations of “reverse racism,” which is a white nationalist dog-whistle.

It can be such……but not actually in my case. It is indeed possible for a black man in an African country like Zimbabwe to express racism towards whites. To say this is fair is to deny that the playing field between races should ever be leveled, instead still favoring one race dominating another. You either believe in racial equality or you don’t. Wahid Azal’s recent attacks on me prove he is an anti-white extremist, not a credible activist for racial harmony and peacemaking like me.

Even the Southern Poverty Law Center, the most dedicated anti-racist organization in America, lists black separatist groups as “hate groups” along with the Ku Klux Klan, American Nazis, and others that favor whites.

No doubt, Wahid must have been embarrassed by my making one of his followers look stupid in public, and his getting me suspended AGAIN was his way of retaliating.

Meanwhile, the coward has fled Germany and moved to Australia.

https://wahidazal.blogspot.com/2019/12/back-in-australia-here-is-why.html

Since this asshole has lied about me being “racist” and lied about the moderators of the exBahai subreddit being agents of the Haifan Baha’is, what else could he have been lying about? Is it possible that he murdered his wife? Or did he even have a wife and daughter at all? Were those two family members, and the later death of his wife, made up by Wahid to gain public sympathy? Perhaps we will never know. He is responsible for so much fakery on the internet (even while accusing others of having fake identities), that it is impossible to be sure of anything about him now.

Betrayed by Wahid Azal (podcast)

Hello. I am Dale Husband, and today I’d like to talk about a certain individual known across the internet as Wahid Azal. Last month, he and I were friends and we made a podcast together in which we discussed the Baha’i Faith and I also talked briefly about my allegiance to Unitarian Universalism. A link to that is below in the description.

Well, a couple of weeks after this, Wahid was banned from the ExBahai subreddit, a link to which is also below,

https://www.reddit.com/r/exbahai/

and this was done for him fighting with another member and also making threats at the moderators of the subreddit. I expressed my profound disappointment over this, since he had clearly brought this punishment on himself.
His response to this was to turn completely against me and begin to attack me in the most ridiculous terms. A link to the blog entry documenting this is also below.

https://dalehusband.com/2019/09/02/wahid-azal-slanders-me-and-others-in-reddit/

Not content with this slander, he further defamed my character with a second video in which he accused me of somehow being racist. A link to THAT video is also below, so watch that diatribe and then come back and finish this.


OK? Question: How could it have been acceptable for him to collaborate with me only a month before and then begin slamming me for views and perspectives I do NOT have and he cannot prove I have regarding race relations? The simple truth is that Wahid Azal has always had a psychotic, bigoted hatred of white people. Now, of course white people in power have been responsible for a great many evil things over the past several centuries. Does that mean that ALL white people should be condemned for what their ancestors have done? Wahid Azal clearly thinks so. He only found me useful because of my devastating attacks against the Baha’i Faith, and thus I was an outlier to him, one of the “good” white people. Much like a white supremacist like Donald Trump can find “good” blacks useful to them even while demonizing blacks in general, such as Barack Obama. But the moment I stopped being useful to Azal, he began to treat me instead like he has always treated white people, as an enemy.
In addition to slandering me, he also attacked a reddit user named “Christian ExBahai” for being a white American and also repeatedly accused the moderators of the exbahai subreddit of being “gatekeepers” working for the Haifan Bahai leadership in some fashion. There is NO evidence for that claim either and it is certainly irrational for anyone to assume that all white people by their very nature MUST be racist. What would you call someone who asserts things as truth that are not factual?
His anger towards me stems solely from my refusing to be one of his few sycophants. Indeed, I am a sycophant to NO ONE; I am always my own person. If you work with me, we must be equals, I don’t blindly follow anyone. If he was thinking of me in those lowly terms, then he was wrong.
Many times he addressed me as a brother in our battles against the Baha’i Faith, but the thing about being someone’s brother is that you don’t allow simple disagreements to pull you apart from that other person. Wahid Azal is a liar, backstabber and bigot and no one should ever take his insane rants seriously.
Now, I have to wonder if others have also been betrayed and backstabbed by Wahid Azal just as I was. If that has happened to you, please send your story to dale_husband1@att.net and If I get one or more of those stories in the next few weeks, I will publish them in a future blog entry. In any case, beware of that extremist. Trust him at your peril.

Wahid Azal Slanders Me and Others in Reddit

Only two weeks after Wahid Azal and I did a podcast together, and after I intervened to prevent the moderators of the ExBahai subreddit from banning him, he repaid my help by stabbing me in the back! And he was expelled from the subreddit anyway.  He is proof that not all arguments against the Baha’i Faith and not all critics of the Baha’i Faith are created equal and I will work with him no more.

Anyway, here is the podcast he made attacking me.

He speaks of me starting about two minutes in. He accuses me of “shiftiness” and “brownnosing”, which I did not understand.  He also calls me racist and says that I, like all American liberals, are anti-Muslim, anti-Iranian, and pro-capitalist. Note: Making bigoted statements does nothing to defeat the bigotry of others, especially when that supposed bigotry of others is not even a real issue. Continue reading

Confronting Scott Hakala on Quora

Quora is a social media site where people can pose questions on all sorts of subjects and get answers from others. One of the most frequent posters on it is Scott Hakala, a Baha’i apologist.

Before I tell about my fight with him there, I must supply a bit of background.
For more than a year and a half after I made an account on reddit, Hakala, using the pseudonym “DavidBinOwen”, would often invade the ExBaha’i subreddit and relentlessly attack its members with counter arguments to things they would write. Then after wreaking havoc for a few days or weeks, he would disappear only to return weeks or months later. Things got so frustrating that Wahid Azal decided to do something to force the admin of that subreddit to deal with Hakala once and for all. So he posted these:
https://www.reddit.com/r/exbahai/comments/cnzclf/why_are_the_moderators_of_this_site_consistently/

https://www.reddit.com/r/exbahai/comments/co4u0o/beware_non_and_exbahais_of_this_subreddit/

I knew this might lead to Azal being banned from the subreddit, so to prevent that, I sent private messages to all the admin, playing “good cop” to Wahid Azal’s “bad cop”. My efforts paid off; nothing was done to Azal, but Hakala was FINALLY banned permanently from the subreddit.

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The Absurdity of the “Orthodox Baha’i” Claims.

This is a direct sequel to I am NOT an “Orthodox” Baha’i!

I recently found a small group on reddit devoted to the teachings of a faction of Baha’is called “Orthodox”. This was one of the groups arising from the attempt by Hand of the Cause of God Charles Mason Remey to take over the Baha’i Faith in 1960 by claiming to be its second Guardian.

https://www.reddit.com/r/orthodoxbahai/

I looked into it and then made a crosspost between it and the exbahai subreddit with this:

This prompted a member of the first group to come in ours to defend his beliefs.

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Muslim-bashing and Libel Against Ex-Baha’is in Reddit

This is a direct sequel to Treachery of Baha’is @ reddit

Baha’is in reddit have come up with a new tactic for attacking those who dare to leave and then criticize their former religion; they are claiming most ex-Baha’is are just Muslim enemies of the faith who never joined.

First see this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/bahai/comments/8vd7rj/do_bahais_worship_bahaullah/

At one point, a Baha’i named t0lk asserts:

A word of caution about r/exbahai, it is mostly populated by Muslims and not by people who were formerly Baha’is.

This was noticed and commented on here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/exbahai/comments/8vhhiq/a_word_of_caution_about_rexbahai_it_is_mostly/

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The Ultimate Baha’i Delusion?

I posted the following on reddit last week:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exbahai/comments/8ejifq/the_ultimate_bahai_delusion/

Question: What do you think is the ultimate delusion of the Baha’i Faith? There need be no “right” or “wrong” answer here, but I need some opinions on how best to deal with Baha’i apologists like a certain one that keeps invading this subreddit.

You should see the discussion that resulted!

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Treachery of Baha’is @ reddit

0e8ac7aedb33824c6e45657ae61dc77f

Ever since I joined reddit, I have found it a useful way to connect with others and put out information about certain topics as well as read information from others. Unfortunately, there have been attempts by some to suppress such information.

Take a look at this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/OnThisDateInBahai

This community has been banned

This subreddit was banned due to being used for spam. If you’d like to take it over please make a post in /r/redditrequest

Uh, I was a subscriber to that community and am prepared to testify under oath that any claim that its users were spamming is a LIE. All it did was post information about Baha’i history, including some criticism of it.

It was created by https://www.reddit.com/user/A35821361

This account has been suspended

So both the community and the user that made it were banned from reddit! But I have known that guy for months and he is NOT a spammer.

What really happened was that someone, most likely a Baha’i, REPORTED A35821361 for spamming merely because he sent that person a message, probably with one or more links to information on his community. That is NOT spamming!

This sort of treachery is why I have absolutely NO respect anymore for the Baha’i Faith, because it seems to make its followers engage in backstabbing like this!

And when we ex-Baha’is try to get that community back under our control:

dragfyre 1 point  

I am the top mod of r/bahaihistory, and would love to mod this subreddit to allow us to split off our existing “On This Day…” content into its own subreddit. Our subreddit has existed for a while, and is currently supported by the Today in History project on Bahaikipedia.

aGreenTeaLatte 2 points

That would be an excellent idea! I second this. r/bahaihistory does need a complementary subreddit to cater to its daily posts, leaving r/bahaihistory for more in-depth discussions of Baha’i history. I think connecting it with the Bahaikipedia project also extends its potential for a subreddit that draws on multiple redditors collaborating.

Also, having a mod with demonstrated experience running and expanding subreddits, collaborating and developing the capacity of others to start modding too, will prevent spam by one individual seeking to make a subreddit his/her own personal message board in future, as was the unfortunate case with r/OnThisDateInBahai.

dragfyre and aGreenTeaLatte are certainly people I will be wary of in the future. Who is to say that in a few more months they won’t try to suppress the original ex-Baha’i community in reddit as well?

The banned user has now created a new blog of Baha’i history:
http://onthisdateinbahaihistory.blogspot.com/?m=0

Let the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, never be suppressed!

Later, a Baha’i named t0lk invaded the ex-Baha’i subreddit to pick a fight with us.

https://www.removeddit.com/r/exbahai/comments/8at63r/new_bahai_history_blog_for_critics_of_the_faith

Dale_Husband_HS

Alert! Take a look at this: https://www.reddit.com/r/OnThisDateInBahai/

Then this: https://www.reddit.com/r/exbahai/comments/8alrud/this_community_has_been_banned_this_subreddit_was/

And then this: https://www.reddit.com/r/redditrequest/comments/8alw5m/requesting_ronthisdateinbahai_this_subreddit_was/

It seems that Baha’is are making an effort to suppress criticism of the Baha’i Faith on reddit by making false reports of spamming there and then attempting to take over the subreddit above. So the creator of that subreddit has moved his operations to blogspot.

This is yet another reason why Baha’is should always be distrusted. They will stab you in the back if you dare to stand up to them and contradict their propaganda.

_______________

Can someone please explain to me how a forum that individuals willfully go to visit can be banned for “spam” (which a Google search states is “irrelevant or inappropriate messages sent on the Internet to a large number of recipients”? I understand the /u/A35821361 was banned for messaging three individuals with certain information about Bahá’ísm (mind you, after they posted relevant messages about Bahá’ísm). What I do not understand, and perhaps someone can explain to me, is how the banning of A35821361 for sending three messages (i.e., spam) relates to the banning of /r/OnThisDateInBahai?

As I mentioned in another thread, personally, if I receive a message that I do not wish to respond to, I simply ignore it.

I suppose if you are worried about exposure to “spiritual poison” and such, particularly if it is inherited, then you might be more interested in silencing that voice by cutting its tongue off.

Of course, information control is a characteristic of cults, and we know that the Bahá’í Faith is not a cult.

________________

After t0lk showed up, I proceeded to take him to the cleaners.

Ah, I knew that name looked familiar! t0lk has posted a comment on my blog long ago.

https://dalehusband.com/2008/09/07/the-fatal-flaw-in-bahai-authority/#comment-261

{{{t0lk says:
September 8, 2008 at 1:13 PM Edit

Hello,

This site is interesting: http://covenantstudy.org/questions/shoghi-effendi-will/ and http://covenantstudy.org/questions/uhj-without-guardian/ }}}

I replied:

[[[Dale Husband says:
September 8, 2008 at 1:27 PM Edit

Thanks for the references, T0lk. I have read those passages before, and once accepted them as valid because I WANTED to believe them, not because they really made sense. They don’t, any more than the errors and contradictions of Christianity, Islam, or other religions make sense. Unless and until you look for absolute consistency in any belief system, you will be led astray. Reality, as revealed by science, is the only way to go for me now!

I have NO use whatsoever for religious doublespeak!]]]

And ten years later, I still don’t!

________________

And for those who are interested, here is t0lk doing an interesting bit of damage control elsewhere:

{{{t0lk 15 points 5 days ago

The discussion I’ve run into on other Baha’i forums (facebook) all suggest she was not active/intersted in being a Baha’i, but actively attacked the Faith’s views on things like meat eating. Some quotes:

[[In this Persian video she attacks Baha’is and says Bahais eat meat and therefore are Un-enlightened]]

[[I saw her videos some 5 years ago. She attacked Bahais who eat meat. She was a vegetarianism activist.]].

[[ She was pointed out to me at a Baha’i conference a few years ago. I was told at that time that although she mixes with Baha’is but she is an activist who likes to create dissent and likes going against the grain! This was through a friend and I decided I wasn’t eager to meet a radical militant pseudo Baha’i!]]}}}

You can be a Baha’i and a passionate vegan even though Baha’is are permitted to eat meat. You can also be a Baha’i and argue against smoking even though Baha’is are permitted to smoke.

t0lk can’t accuse me of dishonesty while doing things like THAT!

___________

That does not contradict what I said at all. Here, let me repeat my point: “[Spam is] not merely attempting to share NEWS about a relevant topic that someone is clearly interested in.” By definition, criticism of the Baha’i Faith would be relevant to anyone investigating the Faith. So you LIED here!

You really think the stunt you pulled against us will help promote your Faith? The story of what you did is already OUT, t0lk! It’s out not only on WordPress where my original blog entry was posted, but also on Blogspot where it was copied and on Facebook where links to my blog entry were made.

[[[Would you be okay if Baha’is sent unsolicited private messages to anyone who posted in r/exbahai to tell them how wrong they were? Surely you can see that this isn’t appropriate behavior even if you feel very strongly about the subject.]]]

Your arrogance and dishonesty are infuriating. Someone who gets unwanted messages once or twice can simply delete them. Are you seriously claiming that /u/A35821361 sent the same message DOZENS OF TIMES TO THE SAME RECIPIENT? That might indeed be spamming, if you could prove it was done that way.

This clearly shows how desperate you Baha’is have become. The internet will eventually discredit and DESTROY the Baha’i Faith and every other authoritarian cult that exists in the world. It may take another 30 or 40 years, but I have no doubt that a century from now the Baha’i community will exist only as a broken remnant in a few poor parts of the world, much like Zoroastrianism does in Iran and India now. You are only delaying the inevitable.

T0lk eventually deleted all his comments. Coward!

_________________

Later:

This guy was BANNED from the very subreddit he created after a Baha’i stole it from him!

_________________

In the end, we finally won a partial victory.

Where one of the Baha’i offenders said:

I recall my issue with it being that it presents itself as Baha’i. The name makes it seem it’s a daily version of r/bahaihistory, that is, with r/bahaihistory being about longer expositions and discussions and r/onthisdateinbahai being a daily posting, and both being connected to one another. But as it stands, they are both used similarly, one by the Baha’is on Reddit, one by a single individual to present his personal take of the Baha’i faith. He even uses the 9 pointed star from bahaiteachings.org lol, so anyone familiar with that website would think its officially Baha’i. On the other hand, I or other Baha’is wouldn’t petition for control of r/exbahai because this sub isn’t officially Baha’i and it’s obvious.

Granted, that was a legitimate issue to bring up to us, but backstabbing the subreddit’s creator and trying to steal the subreddit only made the reddit Baha’is look like assholes.

The Baha’i Faith, Mormonism, and Reddit

Two weeks ago, I made an account on reddit, yet another social media site. I immediately dove into battles with the Baha’i bigot and backstabber Scott Hakala (who was using the false name DavidbinOwen but was exposed anyway), until I got so sick of his arguments and self-serving bullcrap that I finally blocked him. He was infesting the Ex-Baha’i forum, which as a Baha’i propaganda minister he certainly had no business being in.

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