Confronting Scott Hakala on Quora

Quora is a social media site where people can pose questions on all sorts of subjects and get answers from others. One of the most frequent posters on it is Scott Hakala, a Baha’i apologist.

Before I tell about my fight with him there, I must supply a bit of background.
For more than a year and a half after I made an account on reddit, Hakala, using the pseudonym “DavidBinOwen”, would often invade the ExBaha’i subreddit and relentlessly attack its members with counter arguments to things they would write. Then after wreaking havoc for a few days or weeks, he would disappear only to return weeks or months later. Things got so frustrating that Wahid Azal decided to do something to force the admin of that subreddit to deal with Hakala once and for all. So he posted these:
https://www.reddit.com/r/exbahai/comments/cnzclf/why_are_the_moderators_of_this_site_consistently/

https://www.reddit.com/r/exbahai/comments/co4u0o/beware_non_and_exbahais_of_this_subreddit/

I knew this might lead to Azal being banned from the subreddit, so to prevent that, I sent private messages to all the admin, playing “good cop” to Wahid Azal’s “bad cop”. My efforts paid off; nothing was done to Azal, but Hakala was FINALLY banned permanently from the subreddit.


Later, another member posted this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/exbahai/comments/crntdh/when_will_bahais_open_up_their_minds_to_the_fact/

Never one to let something go unchallenged, Scott Hakala addressed this on Quora.

https://www.quora.com/When-will-Bahais-open-up-their-minds-to-the-fact-that-the-Bayan-is-full-of-verses-refuting-Bahaullahs-claim

Baha’is have open minds, but a Baha’i should never accept the assertion implied in the question since it is not true. Baha’u’llah proved He was the Promised One (Him Whom God Shall Make Manifest or Man yuzhiruhu’llah in Arabic) of the Persian Bayan, and provided such independent evidences and proofs that there is no such realistic argument.

The Bab in a number of places in His Writings referred to Baha’u’llah and Baha and anticipated the imminent appearance of Him Whom God Shall Make Manifest after year eight and His declaration around the nineteenth year of the Babi Dispensation (1844–1863). This is discussed at length by Professor Nader Saiedi (UCLA) in Gate of the Heart, 2008, throughout the text but particularly in Chapters 11, 12, and 13 and is also discussed in Taherzaden,The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh, Volume 2, Chapter 17.

For these and other reasons, the followers of the Bab generally expected the imminent appearance of another Messenger of God relatively soon after the Bab’s martyrdom (which He also anticipated in His Writings and recorded statements). Consistent with this expectation, according to Dr. Momen in the Cyprus Exiles (The Cyprus Exiles), more than 90% of the followers of the Bab (Babi’s) that remained faithful and survived the persecution became Baha’is and recognized Baha’u’llah as the Promised Messenger of God mentioned throughout the Persian Bayan. Moreover, the Bab’s surviving maternal uncles and other relatives also recognized Baha’u’llah as the Promised One in the Persian Bayan.

Baha’u’llah, Himself, addressed this issue in the Kitab-i-Badi. (See Kitáb-i-Badí’ – Wikipedia; this is addressed at length by Professor Nader Saiedi (UCLA) in Logos and Civilization, 2000, Chapter 6 and by Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh, Vol. 2 Adrianople 1863-68 (Oxford: Ronald, 1972), Chapter 17 The Kitab-i-Badi) Regarding this issue, Adib Taherzadeh writes:

“But the major part of the book [Kitab-i-Badi] is devoted to the exalted theme of ‘Him Whom God shall make manifest’, Bahá’u’lláh, the Promised One of the Bayán. Bahá’u’lláh quotes numerous passages from the Writings of the Báb in which He extols the station, the glory, the transcendental majesty and the authority of ‘Him Whom God shall make manifest’. It suffices to quote only a few passages from the Writings of the Báb all of which Bahá’u’lláh quotes in the Kitáb-i-Badí’. It should be noted that the Báb’s Writings are replete with similar statements about Bahá’u’lláh:

“I have written down in My mention of Him* these gem-like words: ‘No allusion of Mine can allude unto Him, neither anything mentioned in the Bayán.’…Exalted and glorified is He above the power of any one to reveal Him except Himself, or the description of any of His creatures. I Myself am but the first servant to believe in Him and in His signs, and to partake of the sweet savours of His words from the first-fruits of the Paradise of His knowledge. Yea, by His glory! He is the Truth. There is none other God but Him. All have arisen at His bidding.”5

The study of the Kitáb-i-Badí’ makes it clear that the purpose of the Báb in revealing Himself was none other than to prepare His followers for the coming of Bahá’u’lláh. There are many passages in the Writings of the Báb in which He makes a firm covenant with His followers concerning ‘Him Whom God shall make manifest’.” Taherzade, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh, Volume 2, Chapter 17

The Bab, Himself, confirmed this indirectly in the Tablet to Mullá Muhammad Báqir-i Tabrízí wherein the Bab promised Mulla Baqir that the the Mulla would meet and recognize the Promised One and moreover alluded to Baha’u’llah’s name and the timing of His appearance. (See An Introduction to Tablet of Mulla Baqir.) The fact that Mulla Baqir did meet Baha’u’llah in Baghdad and recognized Baha’u’llah as the Promised One of the Bayan before Baha’u’llah’s Declaration in 1863 is both fulfillment of the Bab’s prophesy and proof that Baha’u’llah was the Promised One of the Bayan.

“He [Mulla Baqir} received a letter from the Báb saying he would attain “Him whom God shall make manifest” in the year ‘eight’ (1268 AH). Soon after Bahá’u’lláh’s release from the Siyáh-Chál of Tihran, Mullah Baqir obtained His presence and quickly became a believer and teacher of the Cause. Most of his teaching with was based in Adhirbayjan.” Letters of the Living – Wikipedia

Given a full and fair reading of the Writings and warnings of the Bab, I believe that it is impossible to believe in the Bab as a Messenger of God and not logically accept that Baha’u’llah is the Promised One (Him Whom God Shall Make Manifest or Man yuzhiruhu’llah in Arabic) repeatedly foretold of in the Bab’s Writings and Who is the focus of the Persian Bayan. Indeed, so clear are the Bab’s proclamations and warnings, to reject Baha’u’llah is to violate the Covenant of the Bab set forth in the Perisan Bayan (as He warned in that text; see Taherzadeh, Revelation of Baha’u’llah, Volume 1, Chapter 19 Him Whom God Shall Make Manifest).

Baha’i scholars (and even many scholars who are not Baha’i) unanimously recognize that Baha’u’llah is the Promised Messenger of God (Him Whom God Shall Make Manifest or Man yuzhiruhu’llah in Arabic) mentioned throughout the Persian Bayan. In a recent course in the first half of 2019 on the Persian Bayan (provided by the Wilmette Institute, one of the instructors, Shahrokh Monjazeb) additional provisional translations of the Persian Bayan were provided that demonstrated that much of the Persian Bayan was addressed to the Promised Messenger of God (Him Whom God Shall Make Manifest or Man yuzhiruhu’llah in Arabic) mentioned throughout the Persian Bayan. It was furthermore demonstrated that the Bab referred to Baha’u’llah in that text and in other texts (including in the Arabic Bayan). Moreover, the Persian Bayan explicitly warns the followers of the Bab to not dispute with the Promised One or contest any claimant and explicitly indicates that only the Promised One would be capable of fully understanding the Bayan. (Prof. Nader Saiedi, Gate of the Heart, p. 64, also footnote 60 to Chapter 1).

The false interpretations and assertions regarding the Persian Bayan were made by followers of Mirza Yahya (aka Azal). Contrary to Azali/Bayani assertions, Mirza Yahya made his own claim to be the Promised One but later withdrew that claim when it became apparent to many that Mirza Yayha lacked the abilities required. These false assertions and interpretations are addressed at length in the Kitab-i-Badi (Kitáb-i-Badí’ – Wikipedia) written by Baha’u’llah (discussed by Professor Nader Saiedi (UCLA) in Logos and Civilization – Spirit, History, and Order in the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh (2000). “Chapter 6: The Kitab-i-Badi’: The Promise Fulfilled”, pp. 175–210.; also discussed by Adib Taherzadeh as discussed in Revelation of Baha’u’llah, Volume II, p. 373.

This was noticed and commented on here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/exbahai/comments/csg6q7/scott_hakalas_answer_to_the_question_when_will/

Which prompted me to go after Hakala.

All you are doing in quoting from the Baha’i Writings you already blindly accept as true. That is a non-starter.

If you constantly take at face value the CLAIMS made by religious leaders and propaganda writers, you will always blindly follow what they teach, which is exactly what they want you to do, even if they are outright con artists. That’s why there are so many religions and divisions within religions.

Claims are all you have EVER posted with regards to the “history” of the Baha’i Faith. Remember, Baha’is are under strict orders to shun “covenant breakers”. Since Baha’is of different factions are not allowed to talk to each other, that creates a situation in which they can live in their own universes created out of nothing by the propaganda writers that wrote all sorts of stories about Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha, Mirza Muhammad Ali, Mirza Yahya, Shoghi Effendi, and numerous others. Truth is meaningless in this context.

He responded with this:

I made a comment in response and then made a copy of it in reddit, only to discover later that Hakala had my answers DELETED from where they were originally posted!  THE COWARD!

Anyway, here is that response:

“Therefore, if I believe in the Bab (which I do) then the Bab’s own interpretation of His own Writings should be decisive in this matter. There are, in fact, numerous allusions to Baha’u’llah found in the authenticated Writings of the Bab.”

Name ONE.

“I am entitled to give the most weight to those documents and testimonies that are credible and not the incredible or proven false. Everyone does this according to their understanding and beliefs.”

Truth and falsehood are not based on anyone’s biased “understanding and beliefs”, but on what one can see directly from reality itself. So far, you have given us nothing real to accept, only tons of dogmatic talking points.

“There is an internal consistency in the Baha’i Faith’s position throughout that is missing in the positions of the various covenant-breaker groups.”

My own research on the Faith has blown apart its credibility forever. And having done that, I see no “ internal consistency” to any of it.

“Baha’is can read and understand what the covenant breakers are saying, contrary to your assertions.”

What I said was, “Baha’is are under strict orders to shun ‘covenant breakers’.” By shunning them, you deny their basic humanity and thus make it easy to read anything they write and dismiss it without really thinking about it. And BTW, if you can do that to covenant breakers, why can’t I do that to YOU?

“When a person breaks the covenant of Baha’u’llah (or even more extreme apostacy) I have found that person will be stripped of the moral and spiritual guidance and often hate the light and attack it.”

“the anger, spite, hatred, envy, and deviousness among those attacking or disaffected from the Faith is quite clear.”

These are personal attacks that are fallacious on their face. Again, I could call you a bigoted, lying, scumbag who is extremely disrespectful and hateful towards anyone who rejects your claims and that would be just like what you did to us. Stop being a hypocrite!

“Mirza Yahya, by his own behavior, discredited himself in numerous instances.”

Yet you claim to believe in the Bab, who appointed him to be leader of the Babis after him and NOT Baha’u’llah? That’s an obvious contradiction. Why not admit the Bab made a colossal mistake and then deny his Prophethood?

“Baha’u’llah anticipated the end of the Aghsan (male descendants of Baha’u’llah in good standing) in His Writings.”

No, he didn’t. He did appoint both Abdu’l-Baha and Mirza Muhammad Ali as leaders of the Baha’is after him, but that’s it. He said nothing about his descendants all being thrown out of the Baha’i Faith like what Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi did to their own relatives. So you stated a clear falsehood.

“The members of ‘Abdu’l-Baha’s family were similarly warned, including in the Will & Testament of ‘Abdu’l-Baha. It was made clear to them to not associate with those that violated the covenant.”

Except at some point, most of them must have figured out that

  1. Shoghi Effendi was unfit to be Baha’i leader.

  2. They had been lied to about the followers of Mirza Muhammad Ali being “covenant breakers”.

which is why most of them rebelled. You can’t hide fraud and hypocrisy forever!

“They resented the fact that Shoghi Effendi married someone from the West instead of a related person or someone from Persia in the Faith.”

So they were RACIST?! You realize that means Abdu’l Baha and his daughters sucked at being teachers of Baha’i virtues, right? Yeah, keep insulting Baha’u’llah’s descendants. That looks very appealing to seekers…….NOT!

BTW, you and Ken Ammi, a Christian apologist who has written an entire book against the Baha’i Faith, should compare notes. You both look equally ridiculous to me.

Then the asshole made this:

Knowing he could merely have any more comments of mine deleted, I returned to slam him in reddit. And others joined in the bloodletting.

Dale_Husband_HS

So once again he asserts that he takes at face value sources that tell him what he already assumes to be true (confirmation bias) accuses me and other critics of the Baha’i Faith of what he does (projection) and finally attacks us personally with regards to our opposition (ad hominem fallacy).

Hey, liar! I’ve seen clear cases of dishonesty from Baha’is online. Do I need to show the proof again?!

https://dalehusband.com/2018/07/04/muslim-bashing-and-libel-against-ex-bahais-in-reddit/

 

ZoroastrianMan

As always: Only quantity, but no quality in his large as usual messages.

Your comment I can’t see on Quora. The professional propagandist let it be deleted, because he is afraid of good written refutations.

 

I’m fully convinced that Scott is a fucking imbecile. I also find it impossible to not see fascist undertones fully throughout Baha’i censorship and shutting-down of Bayani (or “Babi”) views on the matter. Baha’i’s cannot tolerate those who only accept the Bab, which is really telling to how thin the string they’re hanging on it.

All I see is conjecture in their comments, and as I posted a few weeks ago, it’s impossible to rationalize Bahaianity. It has no credibility and no spirituality, it’s literally the most empty (not in a Zen way, btw) religion there is. Aside from that, it put the Bab’s teachings through a shredder, it’s despicable imo.

Your quote from Scott is loaded full of intolerance, really, I’m appalled 😠

 

Did you see where Scott actually claimed Shoghi Effendi’s relatives resented his marrying a non-Persian? You know why I know that’s a damned lie? Because Shoghi Effendi himself put out a message to the Baha’is of the world attacking his own brother (who he had already thrown out of the Baha’i community) for marrying a “low-born Christian girl in Europe”, and called that a “disgraceful alliance”.

THAT MAKES THE “GUARDIAN” A HYPOCRITE!

 

{{{ For these and other reasons, the followers of the Bab generally expected the imminent appearance of another Messenger of God. }}}

LOL. I think the only reason SOME Babis thought that was out of desperation. The revolt led by the Bab had failed and with the Bab being martyred, it was thought that only the coming of another Prophet would revive the fortunes of the Babis, which is exactly what Baha’u’llah promised once he declared his mission in 1863. Babis should have been asking themselves why the Bab was not as successful as the Prophet Muhammad was in overthrowing the pagan Arabs.

It was the influence of Christianity, with its depiction of the heroic martydom of Jesus by crucifixion, that led to the idea of the Bab’s own martyrdom being a heroic event too; if he was willing to die for his teachings, they must be worth living and fighting for, even with him gone. And that should have been enough. The Babis didn’t need Baha’u’llah, since they already had Mirza Yahya for their leader. If the Bab had intended for Baha’u’llah to be “Him Who God Makes Manifest”, why wouldn’t he have appointed Baha’u’llah to be the actual next leader of the Babis to give him crediblity from the start? The more you think about it, the more things just don’t add up.

OMG, he DID have my comment deleted. I’m so glad I saved a copy of it here before he did that, the damned coward!

wahidazal66, what do you think of that?

HYPOCRITE, if you really didn’t want to stir up “conflict and contention”, you shouldn’t be invading places you are not welcome to and repeatedly defending a false religion!

News flash: Assuming that sources are true because they are Baha’i and denying them because they are not Baha’i is absolutely no way to find real truth. You could do the exact same with any religion or ideology and get the same useless result.

Assuming that sources are true because they are Christian and denying them because they are not Christian is absolutely no way to find real truth.

Assuming that sources are true because they are Muslim and denying them because they are not Muslim is absolutely no way to find real truth.

Assuming that sources are true because they are Communist and denying them because they are not Communist is absolutely no way to find real truth.

Assuming that sources are true because they are conservative and denying them because they are not conservative is absolutely no way to find real truth.

Assuming that sources are true because they are Nazi and denying them because they are not Nazi is absolutely no way to find real truth.

Assuming that sources are true because they are atheist and denying them because they are not atheist is absolutely no way to find real truth.

DO THE REST OF YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I MEAN?!

I refuse to be intimidated by Scott Hakala’s long winded statements. His many, many, MANY claims can never make up for this:
https://dalehusband.com/2008/09/07/the-fatal-flaw-in-bahai-authority/

If the actual FACTS are on my side, entire novels worth of rhetoric can never make those embarrassing facts go away!

And I will end the blog entry with this:
Discussion rules

 

2 thoughts on “Confronting Scott Hakala on Quora

  1. Hakala said: “Why do you believe assertions by Azalis/Bayanis and Mirza Yahya who have no credibility today but not believe the majority of believers in the Bab that include scholars (who are Baha’is and scholars) some teaching in universities with expertise on this subject?”

    Because truth and crediblity are not based on popularity contests. If it was, why aren’t you Muslim, since there are now over one billion Muslims in the world and only a few million Baha’is? Lots of Muslims do know of the Baha’i Faith and reject it because of their attachment to Islamic dogmas. Your attachment to Baha’i dogmas is just as irrational.

  2. Pingback: Wahid Azal Slanders Me and Others in Reddit | Dale Husband's Intellectual Rants

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s