Wahid Azal Disgraces Himself Again.

Wahid Azal has a long history of picking stupid fights with people just to pump up his hyperinflated ego. This week, he did it again to one of my exBaha’i allies.

He was referring to this:

Where the following comments were made:

It’s difficult to understand that view, to be honest. If I were to rank the Baha’i figures in terms of harmful beliefs, the Bab would top it by some margin, followed by Baha’u’llah (though the future potential for harm is greater for BH). The Bab caused anarchy and bloodshed for several years, and when given a viable plan to stop the bloodshed, he replied that the blood was like fertiliser for the soil. He advocated beliefs so deeply fanatical that we can find no parallel outside recent extremist religious movements such as ISIS, e.g. taking possessions away from non-believers to give to believers, burning books, and many other despicable, evil, and ludicrous teachings.

The notion that God would “manifest” on Earth and tell us to burn books and kill non-believers, as the Bab did, makes me shudder. The Bab was definitely one of the evilest men in recent Persian history.

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Unitarian Baha’i

I’m not too concerned with the Bab’s teachings on violence since Baha’u’llah came later and banned holy war and abrogated the burning of books. So it is no longer an important question if the Bab taught violence. In any case, there have been times in history where violence was justified (e.g. pre-Islamic Arabia).

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So God endorsed the burning of books and homicide in 1844 and changed his mind in 1863. Fickle isn’t he.
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Then someone barged in to attack SuccessfulCorner.
Wahid Azal sockpuppet

What is your evidence that the Babis endorsed burning books and homicide, you shameless IR hack? Tell us again how many leftists Khomeini ordered executed without trial at the tail end of the war with Iraq that you so-and-sos started.

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Wahid Azal sockpuppet

The Bab caused anarchy and bloodshed for several years,

This is IRI state propaganda and mullah nonsense articulated by the same people who literally created anarchy in Iran during 1978-9 to seize power by force and murder millions. No such anarchy was created in Iran by the Babis. They were pushed by a corrupt system, and so rightfully took a stance of defensive jihad against it. Proto-ISIS was the Ayatollah Khomeini and the system you truck for, basiji-e-koon kesh!

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I recognized this user as another account being used by Wahid Azal, so I deleted the comments and reported them to the other mods of r/exbahai, causing him to be banned again.

SuccessfulCorner then went to the new post Azal made in his own subreddit.

Wahid, I’d be happy to debate you if you’d be happy to tone down the obtuse language and use paragraphs.

Now, tell me more about yourself. You identify as a Babi but not a Baha’i?

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Bayānī

You don’t know who I am? Some of the people of Hot Air (أهل هباء) (i.e. our terminology for bahais first coined by Subh-i-Azal) consider me to be enemy #1.

Now, you have made a series of false assertions that come straight out of the textbooks of IR state propaganda regarding the Babi period. Can you support what you say?

Let’s start here. You say:

The Bab caused anarchy and bloodshed for several years, and when given a viable plan to stop the bloodshed, he replied that the blood was like fertiliser for the soil. “

Besides being a lame, ahistorical and revisionist apology for Qajar absolutism and the unchecked power of their clerical allies of the time, pray tell, where exactly did the Primal Point say, “blood was like fertiliser for the soil“? Source?

Besides other things, the argument you are making above is a pro-statist argument. First, you are rationalizing the authoritarianism and corruption of the Qajar state and clergy. Second, you are thoroughly whitewashing the events of the time. Third, you have not even factored in what the Qajar state and clergy did to push the Babis into open revolt against it. In other words, your argument possesses no causality and attempts to represent the Babi Revolution as a sort of sui generis violent uprising with the state and clergy as its “innocent victims” – LOL! – who did nothing to bring it upon themselves! Again, these are the sorts of fallacies and whitewashes the IRI and its hawzavi allies regularly employ as talking points about the Babis and the era: talking points that also have a few of their sources in the intellectually dishonest Baha’i sectarian rewrite of Babi history.

Then you say: He advocated beliefs so deeply fanatical that we can find no parallel outside recent extremist religious movements such as ISIS…

The comparison to Daesh/ISIS is a regular IR talking point and is nonsense, and the claim to finding no parallel is an even bigger fallacy. But these are things IR state media and the seminary regularly (and hypocritically) claim about the Bayan.

Then without context, you state:

e.g. taking possessions away from non-believers to give to believers, burning books, and many other despicable, evil, and ludicrous teachings.

First, disenfranchising non-believers of their property in the Bayan is only a feature under a Babi/Bayani state which did not exist between 1844-1850. Second, contrary to what you and the mullahs claim, there is no provision in the Bayan for the burning or destruction of books. Instead this is a claim first dishonestly asserted by the founder of Bahaism and then parrot-fashion repeated by the mullahs as a way to misrepresent the provision and nuanced language of the sixth gate of the sixth Unity of the Bayan. In fact the 13th gate of the 9th Unity of the Bayan unequivocally commands the opposite, that under no circumstance a book or piece of writing ever be materially destroyed:

أنتم أبدًا كتابًا لا تخرقون

So what are the other despicable, evil, and ludicrous teachings here then? Your very language in misrepresenting the teachings, ordinances and history of the Bayan is the language of the IRI! Do you deny it?

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You don’t know who I am? Some of the people of Hot Air (أهل هباء) (i.e. our terminology for bahais first coined by Subh-i-Azal) consider me to be enemy #1.

Never heard of you. You appear to be the only follower of an extinct religion, which must be fun.

It’s ironic that you talk about hot air, as you’re standing alone on top of an extinct volcano (Babism), substituting its bygone life with noise and hot air of your own.

Besides being a lame, ahistorical and revisionist apology for Qajar absolutism and the unchecked power of their clerical allies of the time, pray tell, where exactly did the Primal Point say, “blood was like fertiliser for the soil”? Source?

The sentiment here was the dominant pep talk from the Bab and among the followers of the blood-stained Babi movement. There’s no shortage of examples, including Hujjat-i-Zanjani who encouraged the Babi’s with “God has always decreed that in every age the blood of the believers is to be the oil of the lamp of religion.”

Similarly, Mulla-Husayn proclaimed, “Many a soul will, in this city, shed his blood in this path. That blood will water the Tree of God, will cause it to flourish, and to overshadow all mankind”.

Of course, the Bab could have intervened to stop the needless bloodshed. The Mu’tamid of Isfahan, Imárat-i-Khurshíd, approached the Bab with a plan which included arranging the marriage of the Bab to a sister of the Shah. The Bab replied “Not by the means which you fondly imagine will an almighty Providence accomplish the triumph of His Faith. Through the poor and lowly of this land, by the blood which these shall have shed in His path, will the omnipotent Sovereign ensure the preservation and consolidate the foundation of His Cause.”

Of course, none of this happened. They all died in vain for an evil and worthless cause.

First, disenfranchising non-believers of their property in the Bayan is only a feature under a Babi/Bayani state which did not exist between 1844-1850.

Shame on you, and shame on this disgusting false religion!

The theocratic state envisioned by the Bab was one characterized by a strange dualism of wickedness and stupidity. You acknowledged above an example of the unspeakably wicked vision of the Bab. Examples of his unspeakably stupid teachings include Babis writing the 95 names of God in henna on their bodies after a bath, reciting 700 Bayanic verses daily, not keeping over 19 (wahid) books, and many others, but I’ll spare you the embarrassment. The Bab’s obsession with the number 19 was clearly an expression of mental illness. He even foretold a time when “even the pens on the pencase shall be arranged according to the number wahid (19)”.

As for your comments on the response of the state, let us be absolutely clear: there is no government on Earth that would allow a new group of religious fanatics to establish such an evil and dystopic society as that envisioned by the Bab.

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Wahid’s response showed he had been insincere in wanting any real debate.

Bayānī

ROFLMAO! That’s it? That’s all you got. Tsk tsk tsk…

Let’s get something straight, by your uncritical, unnuanced and totally shambolic ahistorical state propaganda sloganeering of a response (that is utterly full of sh*t from start to finish like everyone and everything associated with that regime) – merely repeating parrot fashion the same trite BS of IR state propaganda – you reveal yourself exactly as being what I say you are: an openly transparent propagandist and shill full of crap working for the Islamic Republic of Iran just here littering reddit and Wikipedia with their trash. You opine:

“God has always decreed that in every age the blood of the believers is to be the oil of the lamp of religion.”

The sentiment and words come directly from Shi’ite hadith. That you have a problem with it just shows your ignorance regarding your own sources. Then comes the real holler:

“Many a soul will, in this city, shed his blood in this path. That blood will water the Tree of God, will cause it to flourish, and to overshadow all mankind”.

You are citing a Baha’ i source, the Dawn Breakers, where Shoghi Effendi is literally putting words into the mouths of the protagonists for dramatic effect. We don’t even accept the legitimacy of that source. Find me something comparable in nuqtat’ul-kaf. Be that as it may, let’s assume for argument’s sake he said it: again, such wording and sentiments are replete throughout Shi’ite sources which the Babis merely echoed and pericoped. Your so-called dajjaal-imam Khomeini went on the pulpit in May 1979 in front of cameras and encouraged people to get themselves martyred and spill their own blood after the assassination of Mottahhari. Hypocrisy much?

And here is where your total ignorance and bias really reveals itself:

Examples of his unspeakably stupid teachings include Babis writing the 95 names of God in henna on their bodies after a bath, reciting 700 Bayanic verses daily, not keeping over 19 (wahid) books, and many others, but I’ll spare you the embarrassment. The Bab’s obsession with the number 19 was clearly an expression of mental illness.

Actually, it is writing allahumma (O God) for men with henna once (and in the baths) and al-rahman (the Compassionate) for women once (and in the baths). 95x is the bare minimum number of times a daily dhikr is to be recited. 700 is the number that the dhikr Allahu Azhar is to be recited. 19 is the number of the Unity (wahid) as well as the numerical value of Existence (wujud) in the science of the letters, not to mention the precise number of letters in the bismillah. If you call it mental illness, perhaps you should also call your dajjaal so-called imam one too since he too was enamored by the science of the letters and numbers and demonstrates it in his commentaries on al-Fatiha, the works of Hamza Fanari and Sadruddin Qunawi, etc. Your ignorance, animus and bias towards the the Primal Point and the Babis is so profound that it thoroughly unmasks you as a shill because for all their own unbelievable ignorance no bahai – whether enrolled or ex – would ever utter the kind of garbled, ignorant BS as you have here.

Then you say:

Of course, the Bab could have intervened to stop the needless bloodshed. The Mu’tamid of Isfahan, Imárat-i-Khurshíd, approached the Bab with a plan which included arranging the marriage of the Bab to a sister of the Shah. The Bab replied “Not by the means which you fondly imagine will an almighty Providence accomplish the triumph of His Faith. Through the poor and lowly of this land, by the blood which these shall have shed in His path, will the omnipotent Sovereign ensure the preservation and consolidate the foundation of His Cause.”

Again, you have your chronology completely garbled while also citing a BS source. While the Primal Point was in Isfahan and under the protection of Manuchehr Khan Mu’tamid-ad-Dawlih, the Georgian, who was the Point’s devotee, there was no bloodshed. So whatever words Shoghi Effendi has put into the mouth of the Point, it is a figment of his own imagination. The bloodshed begins 18 months after He left Isfahan. Be that as it may, you are blaming the Primal Point for refusing a royal bribe? You are a piece of work, but quite predictable for the IR/hawzavi types who are literally willing to give fellatio to anyone who even symbolically supports them, whatever the cost, like Khamenei is to Putin ATM. One recent name comes to mind as to what utter clowns you vilayatis are on that score: Catherine Shakdam!

Your incessant comparison of the Babis to Daesh/ISIS is the dead giveaway that you are a regime hack since it is one of the most notable and regular talking points of the regime. Hasan Ershad keeps repeating it parrot fashion. Every other regime polemicist has been saying exactly the same thing over and over again. Your alter ego u/Investigator919 has been saying this stuff like a broken record himself, and every time he has been challenged and shown the evidence that his assertion is a lie, he censors or runs away – and later comes back saying the same thing again. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it is a regime hack! That gullible fools like DH can’t see it is because, well, they are gullible fools being played like fiddles by you devils. But not everyone is a mentally ill, attention-seeking gullible fool like DH is.

That said, you and those viciously malevolent ignoramuses like you are a decisive argument as to why the Babis should’ve slaughtered every single last one of you hawzavis without mercy to the last man, woman and child without pulling a single punch. If they had, there wouldn’t have been a Khomeinist state in Iran for the past 44 years with an estimated and cumulative number of 3-4+ million Iranians murdered by it. This generation won’t be making the same mistake again.

In conclusion, you say you’ve never heard of me? Your alternative handle u/Investigator919 very much has. Hear this then, Basiji-e-oghdei: nice try, a$$h*le, but surely you don’t think people are really that dumb to not be on to you. Fuck off now back to your cubicle in Qom, or run along keep pretending you are some exbahai living in the UK and no one notices – when you aren’t any such thing!

Consider this having wiped the floor with your degenerate backside. So go now and cry to your little know-nothing, pedo Texan puppet, Gomer, to comfort his fellow degenerate because my argument opening this post stands unassailable like the Rock of Gibraltar with you duffuses incapable of refuting it.

سبزى پلو با ماهى، كس ننت بسيجى

The designations “DH” and “Gomer” refer to me. Gomer is perhaps a reference to Gomer Pyle, a classic TV character from the 1960s.

Meanwhile, I noticed the post by Azal and crossposted it to r/exbahai

And made my own comments:

Ex-Baha’i Unitarian Universalist

Since I am probably banned from r/BAYAN and would never go in there anyway:

The Bab claimed to be the return of the 12th Imam. That claim was forever debunked by his death…..HE WASN’T SUPPOSED TO BE MARTYRED! But the influence of Christianity enabled Babis to later believe the Bab willingly died for the Cause of God just as Jesus had done. Google “sunk cost fallacy” to understand this appearant shift in their thinking.

Yes, the Babis DID attempt to overthrow the Persian government by violence once the Shah refused to convert to the Babi Faith, because the Iman Mahdi was expected to overthrow ALL the enemies of the Cause of God. Wahid Azal is flat out lying if he denies the fuking obvious.

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Ex-Baha’i Unitarian Universalist

an audience of mostly ‘vanilla and milk-toast’ Anglo-American liberals of ‘Unitarian Universalist’ mold

It is hilarious that he used to call me (an American of European descent and, yes, a Unitarian Universalist) a racist, while he himself spits out such blatantly bigoted crap like that, clearly aimed at me. Who does he think he is?!

He needs to get a dictionary. And sessions with a psychiatrist. He has absolutely no business telling others about racism. #hypocrite

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Ex-Baha’i Unitarian Universalist

And here’s another damning example of Wahid Azal totally misrepresenting the Bab’s teachings in a desperate attempt to make the Bab look better than he was:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exbahai/comments/cxdsax/answering_investigator919s_disinfo_part_1/

Gaslighting 101.

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Ex-Baha’i Unitarian Universalist

Over there:

SuccessfulCorner2512

Wahid, I’d be happy to debate you if you’d be happy to tone down the obtuse language and use paragraphs.

Now, tell me more about yourself. You identify as a Babi but not a Baha’i?

wahidazal66

You don’t know who I am? Some of the people of Hot Air (i.e. our terminology for bahais) identify me as enemy #1.

Now, you have made a series of assertions that come straight out of the textbooks of IR state propaganda regarding the Babi period. Can you support what you say?

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identify me as enemy #1.

I seriously doubt that, since you are not a government official in Iran or some other country known to have persecuted Baha’is. You are just some cultist screaming across the internet.

you have made a series of assertions that come straight out of the textbooks of IR state propaganda regarding the Babi period.

Isn’t THAT itself a wild assertion? Don’t ask him to support his claims while you never can support YOURS.

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Ex-Baha’i Unitarian Universalist

Wahid has edited his earlier comment, perhaps thinking I wouldn’t notice and react to it. It is now up to u/SuccessfulCorner2512 to respond to his challenge. Specifically:

  1. Where did the Bab say that “blood was like fertilizer for the soil” in reference to his opponents in Persia?

  2. Is it really appropriate to compare the Babi movement in the 1840s to ISIS? Based on what facts?

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I’ll cross-post here in case he deletes it:
(The long comment he made at Azal over there)
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Ex-Baha’i Unitarian Universalist

Oh, I’m sure he won’t delete your reply, but he will resort to personal insults, lies, and mental gymnastics that rival anything Baha’is have ever done. That’s what he is notorious for and why he was banned from here years ago.

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Ex-Baha’i Unitarian Universalist

Confirmed!

(The long comment Azal made with references to me…..that were added in an edit later)

Google Translate makes that last Persian passage to say:

Vegetable rice with fish, you won’t like it.

Whatever that means.

SuccessfulCorner then reported to me that Azal banned him from r/BAYAN. LOL!

BTW, it’s interesting that Azal uses the same arguments to make the Bab’s lunacy more palatable to Western audiences that Baha’is do, and Baha’is have done so much to spread knowledge of and belief in the Bab around the world, yet Azal hates Baha’is. That’s like Christians hating Jews despite Jesus himself being Jewish!

Another note: Dismissing arguments against the credibility of the Bab as Iranian state propaganda is a form of the ad hominem fallacy. Historical facts with clear and consistent documentation and logical consistency are what matter, not where the facts came from. That’s why I used logic and my understanding of Shia Muslim teachings to debunk the Bab’s and Wahid Azal’s claims. I would do that even though I am an atheist and even if Iran had a secular government.

Just for fun, here’s a song by the rock band Ghost: