Mormonism and the Baha’i Faith

Yikes! Reading this testimony, I wonder how many people lost their faith in Baha’u’llah, the founder of the Baha’i Faith, because another religion accepted as valid by it, such as Christianity or Islam, was also debunked in the eyes of the now ex-Baha’i.

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Talk/talk.religion.bahai/2008-06/msg00026.html

{{{I became a Baha’i in 1994 mainly for the following reason: The 1890-91 prophecies of Joseph Smith.

I joined the Mormon Church in 1978 (Dec. 31st), because I had read “glowing” reports in Reader’s Digest articles on how moral and honest Mormons were. Decades later I discovered these articles were “advertisements” written by the LDS Church Public Affairs Dept., which is perhaps one of the most DISHONEST organizations ever devised by
man! Mormons are NOT more moral and honest than other folks. They are perhaps more DIShonest because they tend to hide their lies and sex-lives more than regular Americans, but they are certainly not more
moral!!!

In any case, I came accross anti-Mormon books, which shook me greatly. One major anti-Mormon claim was that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, due to the fact that he prophecies that Jesus would return in 1890-91,
wearing red garments, and the prophecy failed. Of course, Mormons COULD NOT CARE LESS about that. If JS gave 100,000 prophecies, and each one failed, they could not care less. They are so FOCUSED on become Gods and having sex for all eternity, they can’t think straight.

But I could. And I knew that if that prophecy failed, Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Well, then I discovered that Baha’u’llah, who calimed Jesus had returned “in” him, made his great announcement on Mount Carmel in 1890, and again in 1891. Not only that, but in Baghdad an anti-Babi mob had burned Baha’u’llah’s house, so the Babi women made
for him a new wardrobe out of red Persian drapes; which he wore when he declared in Baghdad in 1863.

Wow! I thought I had found the fulfillment of Joseph Smith’s 1890-91 Return of Christ in Red Garments prophecies! So, I had to become a Baha’i.

Well, since then, I’ve come to the unfortunate conclusion that Joseph Smith was NOT a prophet. Many reasons. The Book of Mormon simply cannot be historical. American Indians are Asians not Hebrews. They have no Semitic DNA in their ancestry. Not a drop. The animals mentioned in The Book of Mormon are all post-Columbian. Ancient American had no donkies, no chariots, no steel swords, etc. Joseph Smith’s “translations” of The Book of Abraham and the Kinderhook Plates are simply wrong, not even close. Anyway, I had to conclude HE WAS A FRAUD. Didn’t want to, but had to.

Joseph Smith’s personal behavior, such as publicly denouncing polygamy but privately practicing it, marrying his own foster daughters to himself, trying to seduce the wives and daughters of his own apostles, lying about many things, all bespeak he was not inspired of God in any way.

Just about all Baha’is accept Baha’u’llah as a Messenger of God basically NOT because of anything HE taught, but because of ‘Abdu’l-Baha’s teachings about racial and gender equality. They figure…..the Baha’i Faith teaches what I agree with…so it must be true! Wow! Well, all sorts of “Prophets” and “Gurus” and “Messiahs” teach racial and gender equality!!! Are ALL OF THEM true Messengers of God? Nay. Rather, their followers are simply SHOPPERS. They shop around for a religion that teaches things they agree with, and then join that religion.

I accepted Baha’u’llah because I HAD TO IN ORDER TO RETAIN MY BELIEF IN JOSEPH SMITH BEING A TRUE PROPHET. But, since I no longer believe in Joseph Smith, I no longer believe in Baha’u’llah.

Baha’u’llah was among a large number of “Messengers of God” that arose in the 19th and 20th century, all saying, “I am the Promised One…you have to follow me!” Baha’u’llah really did NOT teach gender equality. He wanted all Houses of Justice to be men only. So did Abdu’l-Baha, but Shoghi Effendi changed that when most of the early American and
British Baha’i women threatened to rebel!!! He needed their money. Baha’u’llah owned black slaves. He outlawed the slave TRADE (being in the slave selling business) for Baha’is, but not owning slaves. Baha’is continued to BUY and OWN black slaves until past the turn of the 20th century, when the British and French FORCED Egypt and the other Arab states, and Iran, to end black slavery.

Baha’u’llah did NOT preach Gender Equality!!! He granted more shares to male heirs than female. He called the Houses of Justice the RIJALOON (Distinguished Gentlemen) of Justice!! He wanted them all MALE. He did preach about female education, but, you must remember…..HE MEANT TO EDUCATE THEM TO BE MOTHERS, not to head corporations as Baha’is think today.

But, along comes Abdu’l-Baha. Didn’t take him long to figure out what the rich British and American Baha’is who visited him wanted to hear. And they wanted to hear RACE UNITY, and WORLD PEACE and EQUALITY OF THE SEXES. And, of course, he gave them what they wanted, and they gave him what he wanted….THEIR MONEY.

You think Abdu’l-Baha was inspired of God? Well, he said that “Universal Peace” would be established by 1957 (in all editions of _Baha’u’llah and the New Era_ before the 1950 edition, when it was changed). He also said that under the Law of Moses a thief’s hand can be cut off (NEVER a Jewish law!). He said many things that DO NOT SQUARE with history or science. Nevertheless, Baha’is accept his word as HIGHER than the Bible. Why? Because he taught…

*Race unity
*World peace
*Equality of the genders
*Esperanto-for-all

Wow!!

Like the other world-be Prophets and Gurus of his day, Baha’u’llah could perform NO MIRACLES, and even claimed Jesus couldn’t either. This is what they all do. They say, “Oh, I cannot perform miracles, but neither could Jesus, the Gospels are wrong, or mere parables!” That is the claim of Ghulam Ahmad, another “Promised Messiah” who
arise in India in 1890 (coincidentally) telling all he was the “Promised One”. He has 20 million followers worldwide, more than Baha’u’llah, called the “Ahmadis”. He too said, “I cannot perform miracles, but neither could Jesus, the Gospels are wrong!”

What EVIDENCE that Baha’u’llah give that he was a Messenger of God? Words? Flowerly language? I can name you a dozen “Prophets” who did the same. Race unity? I can name you a dozen who did the same? Gender Equality? Esperanto? WHAT DID BAHA’U’LLAH ACTUALLY “DO” TO SHOW HE WAS A MESSENGER OF GOD?

Nothing! He lived in luxury (save the four months in Siyah Chal), and wrote letters. He performed NOT ONE miracle to show he was a true Messenger of God. Not ONE!!! He could not even save his own son, Mirza Mihdi, when he fell from his death through the sun-roof of his apartment in Akka. He could do NOTHING, but write another flowery
poem.

Well…flowery poems are not miracles, and not “signs” that a man is a Messenger of God.

So, out with Joseph Smith, and out with Baha’u’llah. I grant you, Baha’u’llah was much more noble of a man than Joseph Smith, but, neither of them were Prophets of God.

And I have found a true Prophet, one that performed THOUSANDS OF SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES. Dr. Dahesh, the miracle-working Prophet of Lebanon: http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/dahesh/Miracles.html }}}

OK, perhaps that last paragraph was a joke. In any case, when I was a Baha’i, I never considered Joseph Smith to be a true prophet and my faith in Baha’u’llah never depended on the credibility of Joseph Smith. But if I had lost my faith in Jesus, then I would also have lost my faith in Baha’u’llah, because I originally was raised a Christian and Baha’ullah affirmed that Christianity was a true religion. A Baha’i originally raised a Muslim would have lost his faith if Islam was debunked as a true religion, because Baha’u’llah also affirmed Islam as a true religion.

For the record, the Baha’i Faith claims about 5 or 6 million people worldwide and nowhere dominates any area. By contrast, the Mormon Church, which also started in the 19th Century, claims about 10 million members and dominates the state of Utah. Thus, the Mormons are far more successful than the Baha’i Faith and will probably continue long after the Baha’is fade away for good,  even though in my opinion they are far more irrational than Baha’is.

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13 thoughts on “Mormonism and the Baha’i Faith

  1. Dear Dale,

    Darrick Evenson, the author of this article has a very odd history and has claimed to be all kinds of things. When he wrote as an evangelical Christian trying to expose ‘cults’ it was under the pen name Troy Lawrence. Here is an article on him written before he claimed to have become a Baha’i:

    http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no79.htm

    If you read his posts on talk.religion.bahai you will see that he is driven by race hatred and misogyny. I would not take anything he says about the Baha’i Faith seriously.

    warmest, Susan

    • Yes, I figured he was probably a loon, but my point still remains. People whose faith in one religion depends on their faith in an earlier one are doubly in danger of either losing their faith or engaging in rationalizations to justify their shaky faith. That’s always been a serious weakness of the Baha’i Faith.

      Are you a Baha’i or a Mormon? And are you as willing to be skeptical of either one as I am?

      • I’m a Baha’i and although I believe in Progressive Revelation, I don’t think my faith depends on that of others. As you know Baha’is see Buddha as a Manifestation of God, a concept which wouldn’t make sense to most Buddhists who deny the existence of God in the first place. I don’t try to rationalize that, except to ask what exactly do we mean by “God”? It seems to most of the contradictions come in because we insist on a fundamentalist interpretation of religion. I know this was Darrick’s problem. Like you, I never believed Joseph Smith was a prophet. There is a letter written on the Guardian’s behalf where he calls him a ‘seer’ but as near as I can tell all he meant by that is that Joseph Smith was one of the many people in tune with the fact that the end of the Age was near.

        • As you know Baha’is see Buddha as a Manifestation of God, a concept which wouldn’t make sense to most Buddhists who deny the existence of God in the first place. I don’t try to rationalize that, except to ask what exactly do we mean by “God”?

          If I were a Buddhist, I would see right through the claim of Buddha as a Manifestation of God and deny it outright as something Buddha himself would never have endorsed. It’s wrong to either rewrite history or rewrite what a religion or its founder is supposed to be. Have you tried studying Buddhism as it really is?

          There is a letter written on the Guardian’s behalf where he calls him a ’seer’ but as near as I can tell all he meant by that is that Joseph Smith was one of the many people in tune with the fact that the end of the Age was near.

          Or he could have been an outright con artist. And I take no stock in anything written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi.

          • Wow, there is a lot of anger here!

            Did you read what I actually wrote? Obviously I have studied Buddhism or I would not have acknowledged that Buddhism does not talk about the existence of God, let alone Manifestations of God. I did *nothing* to try and rewrite their history, I just noted that there was a discrepancy here between what the Baha’i Faith teaches about Buddha and what Buddhists themselves believe.
            As for whether you take any stock in what Shoghi Effendi says, that is really rather irrelevant to the question of how Baha’is regard Joseph Smith, because they *do* take stock in it.

            (Dale Husband: You have only studied Buddhism through the Baha’i lens, just as I used to “study” other religions through the evangelical Christian lens before I woke up and realized how bogus that method is. You should study religions ONLY on their own terms and nothing more! If, as you say “Buddhism does not talk about the existence of God, let alone Manifestations of God” then Buddhism and the Baha’i Faith can have NO relationship whatsoever! So drop it!)

  2. Dale,

    I think it is a fallacy to base one’s experience of Baha’u’llah (or any other claimant to be a Manifestation of God) on one thing alone. It is interesting that one of the Mormon texts has God telling Joesph Smith that if he lives to be 85 years old (1890) he would see “the Son of Man.” But that, in itself, is not something to base one’s adherence on. The Baha’i Faith does not accept Joseph Smith as either a major Prophet or a minor prophet. So what Joseph Smith said is not in itself a foundation on which to build.

    You also mention that Baha’ullah did not claim to work miracles. I cannot tell whether you would rather all divine claimants work miracles, or that failure to do so be proof of charlatanism. Baha’u’llah only claimed that what people typically think of as miracles are not a proof of divine authority. Such things, He wrote, are only a proof to those who witness them. And even those who witness them do not all believe in them. We do not ask a physician to prove his ability to heal by asking him to fly around the room. Neither should we ask God’s representatives to do parlor tricks. In Islam and the Baha’i Faith, the only true miracle is the revelation of the Word of God and its penetrating power to transform.

    There are accounts of miracles performed by Baha’u’llah and one follower even wrote a book cataloguing Baha’u’llah’s “miracles.” Baha’u’llah commanded the believer to destroy it. Once a group of clergy in Baghdad asked Baha’u’llah to perform a “miracle” to test Him. But for the body of Baha’i believers, this is of no importance. It is the Word of God that has true power. He responded that He would perform such a miracle on two conditions. First, the clerics must agree on the miracle to be performed. Second, upon performance ofthe miracle, they must publicly accept Him as a divine Manifestation. Of course, the clerics could not agree.

    The Baha’i Faith is a religion that balances faith and logic, spirituality and reason. It does not stand or fall on whether Joseph Smith said something. People will not abandon it en masse because any particular individual has lost faith. That is because the Word exists and is itself the proof of the efficacy of the teachings it contains and th Messener Who brought it.

    Bill

    • Why are you telling me things about Joseph Smith (as Baha’is view him) that I would already know, as you would have seen if you had read what I actually wrote at the end of the blog entry? Oops!

      Come back when you can address the actual issue, as Smaneck did.

      • Dear Dale,

        It seemed to me that I was courteously addressing two issues you raised in the blog posting, which I did read. Trying to base one’s views of the Baha’i Faith on what another religious claimant (Joseph Smith) said, and then rejecting it when one determines Joesph Smith was “false” arises, as Susan writes, from a kind of fundamentalism. As you are quoting issues from a disaffected former Baha’i from a Mormon background, I was also addressing others reading your blog who might not fully grasp the point.

        Now, you lost your faith in Jesus, and so determined that, if he was false, then Baha’u’llah had to be false as well because he testifies that Jesus was from God. Certainly, that is a logical and reasonable conclusion that you could make based on what you had become convinced is true. So your decision to leave behind both Christianity and the Baha’i Faith is not dishonorable. You must act on your conscientious understanding of what is true or false. Otherwise, you would be untrue to yourself. My only question is: Did your departure from acceptance of any divine status for Jesus Christ arise from the deteriorated state of Christianity today or primarily from Jesus himself? Basically, what led you to your conclusion?

        Perhaps I misunderstood the mention of miracles, but what I was trying to point out is that I think “prophecy” per se, or traditional proofs, aren’t the primary reason people become convinced to join a particular religious community. Rather, I think it is their experience of it in terms of the spiritual influence of the founder, the capacity of its Book to influence civilization in a positive way, and the transformational effect the suppliant experiences.

        As a Baha’i, I recognize issues in earlier scriptures that do not square with what Baha’is would understand God to want today. But I do not consider those to be damning evidence of falsehood, but rather the natural by-product of our spiritual evolution, where what is required changes and matures as humanity grows in capacity.

        I hope also that you will extend to other possible readers – including those who may disagree with you – a warmer welcome.

        Bill

        • Thanks for returning, Bill.

          The order of events in my spiritual evolution was as follows:

          1. I was a (Southern Baptist) Christian evangelical (Age 15 to 20).
          2. Then I was an agnostic and Unitarian Universalist church member after losing my faith in Jesus. (Age 20 to 27)
          3. Then I became a Baha’i and followed the Haifa based branch of the Faith (Age 27 to 35). I accepted how Baha’is view Jesus.
          4. I lost faith in Baha’u’llah and became agnostic and a Unitarian Universalist church member again (Age 35 to present).

          I hope that clarifies things.

  3. Dear Dale,

    Please know that everything written on the Internet, by anyone, about anyone else, is the truth, or…it simply would NOT be on the Internet. Period. Believe that, and I have a bridge in Brooklyn I’d like to sell you….twice! ;~) Susan Maneck is very bitter woman, because I engaged in debates with her on talk.religion.bahai many years ago. She lost the debates. That angered her. For example, she claimed that the horrible problem of rape in South Africa, was caused by gangs of white youth raping black women. I actually contacted the government of South Africa, and they sent me an official S.A. government report, that showed that the problem was BLACK youth raping women, black and white, not gangs of white youth raping black women. I quoted from that official documents on talk.religion.bahai. Susan was furious. Susan is a typical indoctrinaire of the late 60’s and 1970s “political correct” crowd. In other words, blacks don’t commit sin. They don’t commit crime, unless forced to feed their families. Whites did horrible things to blacks, etc. I disagreed with her, and it angered her to no end. Shoghi Effendi DID say that Joseph Smith was a Seer, meaning, like a Shaykh Ahmad or Siyyid Kazim, a non-prophet who speaks with angels or has visions. Do I believe that today? Well, perhaps he was. I no longer believe in Baha’u’llah. Not because the Faith does not have nifty ideas, some of them, but because he performed no supernatural miracles, at least none I can find. He did preach that spreading gossip was akin to murder. Maneck ignores this, when it comes to me, because the rumors are on the Internet. So, its then “ok” to spread them. The HYPOCRISY is palpable.

    *Do I believe that I am “superior” to blacks?

    Ans. I do NOT. I told Susan that I thought the races were NOT equal in some spheres, such as general intelligence, with the Asian race being the smartest, having the largest brains, and the Australoid race being the less intelligent, having the smallest brains. Caucasians have slightly smaller brains than Asians, and slightly larger brains than Africans. If brain size has nothing to do with intelligence, then I guess chimps are as smart as us! Basically, I don’t adhere to the “all races are equal in all things” B.S. that Baha’is spew, that CANNOT be found in the Writings, or even the pilgrims’ notes.

    **Do I NOT LIKE some blacks? Yes. I was TERRORIZED long before other Americans, by “some” blacks, during forced busing in the early 1970s in Los Angeles. Such RACIST motivated terrorism continues today, in many schools around the country, and is anti-white. Go to YouTube and type in “black on white violence” and you’ll see examples of this, filmed. Schools NEVER ignore anti-black violence, or the anti-white violence was ignored and covered up. Asking me if I HATE BLACKS is like asking a Jew if they HATE Germans. All Germans are not Nazis. Most were not. But…there were still a LOT of Nazis.
    Google “White Girl Bleed A Lot” and you’ll be amazed. Affluent whites, raised in affluent locations, going to good suburban schools, never experience this. They never see it. It is rampant. But “political correctness” forbids anyone to speak about it for fear of being called “racist”. I feel that Africans are, generally speaking, MORE violent than whites, and much more violent than Asians, just like pit bulls are generally speaking more violent than Shih-Tzus! These are facts, and cannot be ignored. Maneck does not like that.

    ***For ALL I know, Baha’u’llah may have been a Manifestation of God! His words are very flowery. His teachings are usually good. ‘Abdu’l-Baha said many positive things. However, I’ve just found a Prophet who actually performed thousands of supernatural miracles. I had to choose….Baha’u’llah and his flowery words, or a Man who could perform supernatural miracles. So, I had to choose that Man, and I did. You can read my story below. I think you’d enjoy reading it.

    *****Maneck has repeatedly VIOLATED her own beliefs by continuing to backbite me any chance she gets. She does so because I proved her beliefs wrong, over and over again, on talk.religion.bahai, over a matter of years. I hope you enjoy reading my story online. Yes…everything I wrote in my online story is the TRUTH! Thank you.
    Darrick Evenson
    http://daheshism.webs.com/DARRICK.htm

    • Thank you for coming and adding your own comments, Darrick Evenson. If you read some of my other blog entries referring to the Baha’i Faith, you may have eventually seen that in the end I grew sick unto death of Susan Maneck’s arrogance, dishonesty, and all around dogmatic logic-twisting and I banned her from commenting on my blog, even after a fellow ex-Baha’i advised me not to. I have my limits and when it comes to MY territory, no one may violate it and get off unscathed. Not Baha’is, not Mormons, not Atheists, not Christians, not racists, not conservatives or anyone else who does not respect my space, and GOES AWAY WHEN SHE ALREADY LOST THE ARGUMENT!!

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